先以文字的方式开始，在newsletter（https://afterschool2021.substack.com/）和游荡者平台（www.youdangzhe.com）开启我的“莫问世界Echoing the World （英文名源于我的名字Echo和我想听到世界的回声-echo）”系列。我第一波要采访的对象，就是来自世界各地的游荡者们。
Elif: 刚来荷兰的第一个月非常糟糕。当我们决定申请庇护时，有很多庇护申请者和难民，Ter Apel 和其它难民营都很满。我们非常担心我们我们会不得不在难民营外面待几天。虽然风险很大，但幸运的是我们最终没有待在外面。难民营的工作人员为妇女、儿童和家庭提供食物和床位，但单身男性只能在满员的情况下暂时待在外面。前三天我们住在 Ter Apel，那地方很糟糕。
Ter Apel 是主要的难民中心，所有申请庇护的人都必须去那里。之后，你要么继续住在那里，要么被送到其他难民中心。我们在 Ter Apel 待了三天后，被送到一个紧急避难所，是一个学校的大体育馆，位于 Exloo，离 Ter Apel 大约 30-40 分钟车程。Exloo 是一个小而漂亮的村庄。由于难民数量多且住宿不足，这些地方被改造成临时避难所。我们在那里待了一周，没有隐私，每个人都在大大厅里睡觉，我记得大约 70-100 人，可能更多。
莫笔记：ELif的话让我想起了伍尔夫的那句“As a woman, I have no country”，女性在任何地方想找到真正的归属感都是很难的。这个世界很多地方都只是男性的家。其实我来到荷兰的第一周，我就非常惊异地发现，我在精神层面没有什么需要调整和适应的，我有一种如鱼得水的感觉。我现在想想，对我而言，让我感受到自由的地方就是我的家。自由，自然，自在的地方都可以是我的家，理想的家。
Elif: I came to the Netherlands on the 30th of August 2022. Well actually I came here earlier, at the beginning of August, but I sought asylum at the end of the month.
Echo's note: I arrived in the Netherlands at the end of August 2021, exactly one year before Elif. Now it’s August 2025. August is the last beautiful month of the year in the Netherlands; after that, the wind and rain gradually arrive, the days get shorter, temperatures drop, and nights come earlier.
2. Why did you feel that you had to leave your country at that time? What made it impossible or unsafe for you to stay?
Elif: There’s a political problem between Erdogan and Gulen. Erdogan is the president of Turkey and Gulen was a religious leader for his followers. His movement’s goal is to spread love, peace and give more importance to religion, nice manners, and education. In 2016, there was a coup attempt and Erdogan blamed Gulen and his followers for the coup and started arresting everyone who supported Gulen. My mom’s friends were taken into custody and imprisoned one by one. That was scary for my mom, so we decided to come to the Netherlands.
Echo's note: I first learned the term “Gülen movement” from Elif. I had wondered before how it was possible to apply for political asylum in the Netherlands when Turkey was not at war. After researching, I learned that the Turkish president defined Gülen and his supporters as “terrorists” and arrested many, including ordinary teachers and company employees. It’s common in many countries that those in power arrest people for differing opinions or interests, as seen in the well-known “anti-mafia campaigns” or the less-known 709 arrests in China.
3. Why did you choose the Netherlands? What factors influenced your decision?
Elif: We did a lot of research about a few countries such as Finland, France, and the Netherlands. We decided to come here because the asylum procedure was better and human rights are highly valued. That’s why we thought the Netherlands was the best option for us.
Echo's note: This was three years ago in the Netherlands. Last year, the right-wing PVV party came to power, proposing extremely strict policies against refugees and immigrants. Fortunately, this summer, the PVV leader resigned after public opposition to his extreme anti-immigrant proposals. The Netherlands is preparing for a new election, and I saw today that he is running again with a platform to completely stop accepting refugees. In the global wave of rightward politics, obtaining political asylum becomes increasingly difficult. However, endless wars and political conflicts are continually creating more refugees.
4. How did you get to the Netherlands in the end? Was the journey difficult or complicated? How long did it take, and how much did it cost?
Elif: We came to the Netherlands legally, by plane with our Turkish passports. We didn’t need a visa because my mom and I had a special “green passport,” which government employees can get after starting work for the government. First, we flew to France and then came to the Netherlands by car. I honestly don’t remember how much it cost.
Echo's note: A good passport and driving skills are extremely important for women wandering the world!
5. What was your first month in the Netherlands like? Was the asylum process smooth? Did you have to stay in a refugee center?
Elif: My first month was horrible. Ter Apel and other refugee camps were very full. We were scared we might have to stay outside for a few days. Luckily, we didn’t. The camp staff accommodated women, children, and families, providing food and beds, but single men often had to stay outside. We stayed at Ter Apel for three days, which was horrible. Then we were sent to an emergency shelter in Exloo, a small village about 30–40 minutes away. The shelter was a converted school gymnasium, housing 70–100 people with no privacy. We stayed there a week with breakfast and dinner provided. Hearing people speak Dutch there, I thought the language would be very difficult to learn 😭. Later, we moved to Oss for 2.5 years. At first, we stayed in a school for 3–5 months, then moved to prefabricated rooms. Oss was a relatively nice refugee camp with many activities and volunteering opportunities. This is how I started learning Dutch.
Echo's note: Ter Apel is a large village in the northeast of the Netherlands, near Germany. Many refugees seeking political asylum are temporarily placed there. I mapped Elif’s movements in the Netherlands over three years—from the north to the south, crossing most of the country.
6. Do you still feel the same way about the Netherlands as you did in the first month? What has changed?
Elif: In the first months, I thought the Netherlands was better. Now everything has become more expensive. I still don’t like the rain 😭. There’s a saying: “You’re not made of sugar,” meaning you won’t melt in the rain. But I think I’d melt haha. I still think the Netherlands is beautiful.
Echo's note: Due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the overall cost of living in the Netherlands has risen, and attitudes toward refugees and immigrants have changed. For refugees and immigrants, the Netherlands is not as good as it was a few years ago. Of course, the same applies globally.
In my new Dutch class today, I shared Elif’s proverb about not being sugar with a classmate from Chile. She said she feels like sugar that would melt in the Dutch rain. Turkey and Chile both have fewer rainy days than the Netherlands. Recently, due to climate change, rainy places like the Netherlands and London have seen very little rain in the past six months, while dry cities like Beijing have turned humid, like tropical rainforests. Sometimes climate change has a stronger impact than human migration.
7. So far, do you enjoy living in the Netherlands? What do you like and what do you dislike about it?
Elif: I do enjoy living here. I love partying and going to festivals—the Netherlands is the best country for fun. Dutch people really know how to enjoy life. But every city is similar: church, canals, same architecture. It gets a bit boring. I also dislike the transportation system—it’s terrible, expensive, and trains are often delayed when it rains, which I find strange.
Echo's note: I previously lived in Rotterdam for three years—a post-WWII newly built city, very different from other Dutch cities. The place I lived resembled Manhattan in New York. But Dutch public transport is really expensive, even more than Zurich, one of the most expensive European cities. Many people commute by train; round-trip costs are 20–40 euros, while in Zurich, 10 CHF tickets allow unlimited rides for 24 hours and even boat rides. Crazy!
8. If you could go back to the moment you made the decision, would you still choose the Netherlands? Or would you consider another country? Why?
Elif: That’s a good question. I’m not sure how to respond, but I’d still choose the Netherlands because it’s prosperous and freer compared to other countries.
Echo's note: After wandering through most of Europe and the world, I still believe that choosing the Netherlands back then was the wisest decision.
9. If you could switch lives with anyone, who would it be?
Elif: Can I say a Dutch person? Not a specific individual, but I’d like to live like a Dutch person—speak the language freely and do what I want.
Echo's note: My top four preferences: Dutch, Parisian, Zurich, or New Yorker. Any one of these would be perfect.
10. What do you think it means for someone to leave their homeland? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Why?
Elif: It’s both good and bad. Most people leave their country because they don’t feel safe and want a better life. Leaving everything is hard, but with hope and doing your best, you can achieve a better life.
Echo's note: For women, leaving one’s hometown is eternally a good thing. Challenges are many, but self-liberation cannot happen if one stays in place.
11. What qualities are most important when someone leaves their home country to start a new life elsewhere? What are the biggest challenges to overcome?
Elif: It depends on the person. Patience, cultural openness, respect, resilience, and adaptability are important. Language barriers, cultural shock, mental health, and social isolation are major challenges. Maintaining good mental health and learning the local language makes other challenges easier.
Echo's note: For me, proactivity is essential. Most difficulties can be solved actively. The biggest challenge for me is not wanting to work (haha), but to get permanent residence or citizenship, one must have a work contract (or a partner). Becoming a partner is even scarier than working.
12. Have you ever felt completely overwhelmed, exhausted, or hopeless? How did you pull yourself out of that state?
Elif: Omg, of course. I know the days when crying, having mental breakdowns. I stayed 2.5 years in a refugee shelter, I’ve talked about it before and it was a nice camp. However, we had to live with different nationalities and that’s a quite difficult situation one can ever live in. And living there made me a bit of racist.. Still I’m not disrespecting anyone but I have some negative feelings.
If you live in a public place then you should keep it clean in my opinion. That’s a society ethic. However, there were people who wouldnt do that, when they cooked, went to toilet/douche.. And I was doing volunteering and was responsible for the kitchen and cleaning. This situation was pissing me of because how 25-45 year old people cannot clean what they made dirty?!!!? I talked to workers about it, talked to those people but I couldn’t get any results. I was just overwhelmed, frustrated and sad because this is only a small part of integration to society.. I realized that nobody would do anything about it so I found a job and worked almost every day, 8-9 hours, not to go to the shelter and see those people. And I was learning Dutch at the same time. Keeping myself busy pulled me out of that state. Also I met my ex boyfriend and was spending most of my time with him.
Echo's note: Having your own room is extremely important for peace and joy. Life in constant collective spaces can drive people crazy. I’ve lived with mostly female roommates and it was pleasant, but male roommates often smoke or do cannabis indoors, which is maddening. In terms of cleanliness, most men are far less clean than women. These facts make me “sexist”( which i regrad not as prejudice but as truth)
13. If you could make one thing disappear from this world, what would it be?
Elif: Inequality, because the world is very unequal. Everyone is of the same race but with more or fewer rights.
Echo's note: Same as above!
14. What is something you deeply wish would happen—for yourself and for the world? Something that, if it happened, would make everything better.
Elif: Equality and justice, because not everyone can access these.
Echo's note: My answer is similar: I hope all national leaders were women, so there would likely be less war and more equality and justice.
15. How are your family and friends doing back in your home country?
Elif: My family and friends are doing fine in Turkey. I talk to them occasionally. Some visited, which was nice. One friend plans to come this year or next. I’m sad I can’t attend his wedding.
Echo's note: Last year I visited Istanbul, and I found it to be one of the friendliest and most hospitable cities in the world. Of course, male gaze and second-hand smoke remain issues.
16. What advice would you give to others who are considering leaving their country, or who are already going through a similar journey?
Elif: Be patient. Good things take time. Also, keep an open mind. Learn to adjust to a new culture without losing yourself or your own culture.
Echo's note: I really like Elif’s phrase, “Good things take time.” Many times, good things do take time to arrive. It reminds me of how people often describe the process of obtaining permanent residence or citizenship as being in an “immigration prison,” with the waiting years compared to serving a sentence. I have sometimes felt this way myself when troubled by visa issues. But then I think: how can I define each day of my life as a “prison”? That would be doing myself an injustice. I’ve also stopped imagining that only when I get a passport will I be freer or happier. Instead, I try to make each day in the present truly happy and free. I refuse to treat any day of my life as second-class.
17. Do you feel like you truly belong here now? What makes a place feel like home to you?
Elif: No, I don’t feel like I truly belong here, and I don’t think I ever will. Having sincere friends and being in a generous environment would feel like home, which is hard to find in the Netherlands.
Echo's note: Elif’s words remind me of Woolf’s quote: “As a woman, I have no country.” For women, it is hard to find true belonging anywhere. Much of the world is just a man’s home. For me, a place that gives a sense of freedom is home. Freedom, nature, and ease define home.
18. Where do you see yourself in five years? Do you want to stay in the Netherlands, go back to your country, or move somewhere else?
Elif: In 5 years I’d be still in the Netherlands, working at job I want and happy but after that I really wanna move to a warm country, could be Spain. And I wanna work remotely. I love Spanish culture and really wanna learn Spanish after achieving a good level of Dutch.
Echo’s note: I also hope I could spend autumn and winter in Spain, but spring and summer in the Netherlands, because it’s so hot in Spain during that time! A mix of Spain and the Netherlands would be perfect.
19. How has this journey—leaving your country and starting over elsewhere—changed you? Are you still the same person you used to be?
Elif: The journey was quite hard tbh. Especially the first year. But communication wasnt a problem at all, I speak English and it was easy. Then I started to learn Dutch, which made my journey easier. I improved a lot, I’m more confident, can think things like Dutch people. I get used to here quickly. Now that we’re at home, it’s easier to live and get used to live. It was quite hard when we were at the refugee camp. I was ashamed of saying that I’m a refugee actually when I meet new people.
Echo’s note: I really relate to the sense of shame she mentions. Sometimes your background or situation can make you feel inferior. It takes a lot of study, wandering, reflection, and thinking to build up confidence and realize that this sense of shame isn’t necessary. I’m happy that Elif—and we—have worked through this.
20. What gives you hope these days? What helps you keep going?
Elif: My ambition and hopes in the future gives me hope. I know that I can achieve what I want if I study and do a lot. I want a good life and future so I’m doing everything to make it happen.
Echo’s note: I am really inspired by this answer. What are the preconditions for happiness? Ambition, desire, confidence, and imagination about the future—these seem to be what keep us going and believing that we can shape our lives.
倘若你有关于“莫问世界Echoing the World”任何感受，问题和建议（比如希望我去采访谁），欢迎在评论区留言！
好好啊！喜欢这个新系列，有种跟世界上的女性的联结感。从访谈中看到了多样性和相似性，很受鼓舞也很感动，谢谢莫不谷和Elif。
在北京没躲过任何一个地方的二手烟三手烟，他们无处不抽。